EP 11 | Dr. Debi Silber "From Betrayal to Breakthrough": Uncovering the Journey of Post-Betrayal Transformation

Ever been blindsided by someone you trust? Betrayal hits hard, leaving us mentally, emotionally and physically drained. In my conversation with Dr. Debi Silber, founder of the Post-Betrayal Transformation Institute, we explore the phenomenon of betrayal. Sharing her own story and insights from her groundbreaking PhD study, Dr. Debi uncovers how betrayal impacts our health, relationships, and work, leading to a litany of distressing symptoms.

We don't just stop at discussing the impact, we take it a step further to guide you through the process of healing. Debi, walks you through the five stages of recovery from betrayal, shedding light on the potential pitfalls and how to navigate them. Dr. Debi pinpoints the most common stage where people get stuck and how it hampers the healing journey. She then takes us to the final stage - healing, rebirth, and a new worldview - a defining moment where emotional and spiritual aspects play a crucial role in rebuilding your life and trust in others.

To round off this eye-opening conversation, we delve into the importance of understanding our spiritual purpose in times of adversity and how self-forgiveness can serve as a beacon on your healing journey. We want you to remember that healing is a choice, and there's a roadmap to guide you. Whether you're dealing with your own betrayal or supporting a loved one through it, this episode offers valuable insights into the journey from betrayal to healing and transformation.

Connect with Dr.Debi Silber today : https://thepbtinstitute.com
Her latest TEDx: “Do You Have Post Betrayal Syndrome?“: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyqOR69dHiU
TEDx: Stop Sabotaging Yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX30i6nC7ro    The From Betrayal to Breakthrough podcast: https://thepbtinstitute.com/podcast/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@debisilber
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debisilber/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/debisilber/ 

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Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:09

Welcome to the Pivot Point stories of courage, resilience and reinvention. I'm your host, jessica McGahn, coach, producer and creative, whose mission is to normalize the human experience, ignite the soul and move you from feeling limited to limitless. Please connect us, and my hope is that within this series, you will find at least one story that resonates with you on a deeply personal level, one that speaks to your soul or your current situation, that will motivate you to keep moving forward, inspire you to make bold, brave choices in your own life and help you feel less alone in the process. In today's podcast, I speak with Dr Debbie Silver about betrayal. This episode includes personal stories of betrayal and psychosocial education around what betrayal is and how we can heal and move forward from it. Dr Debbie Silver is the founder of the Post-Petrayal Transformation Institute and is a holistic psychologist, a health and mindset and personal development expert and is a number one international bestselling author. Her podcast from betrayal to breakthrough is globally ranked within the top 1.5% of podcasts, and her recent PhD study on how we experience betrayal makes three groundbreaking discoveries that changes how long it takes to heal. In addition to being on Fox, cbs, the Dr Oz Show and TEDx twice, she's an award-winning speaker and coach dedicated to helping people move past their betrayals, as well as any other blocks preventing them from the health, work, relationships, confidence and happiness they want most.

Speaker 2: 1:50

This conversation is truly jam-packed with juicy insights that I'm so excited to share with you. So, without further ado, let's dive in. Thank you so much for diving into this conversation with me. Betrayal is such a sensitive topic that I think a lot of people can relate to as a catapult into change for themselves, and from what I've learned about you is that you experience a deep and personal betrayal that catapulted you into great change, and now you're an expert on it or, sorry, I should say, a doctor of it. And so today I really want to hear about your experience with betrayal and the lessons you've reaped for that. So maybe you could start by telling us a little bit of what your life looked like before everything changed.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Sure. So I don't think anybody wakes up one day and says you know, I think I want to study betrayal. No, you do it because you have to, and this was the case with me. So I've been in business over 30 years health, mindset, personal development and it was great. And I had this amazing business four kids, six dogs, thriving business it was all working pretty well had a really painful betrayal from my family, thought. I did everything I needed to do to heal from that. And then it happened again a few years later. This time it was my husband that was the deal breaker. So got him out of the house and looked at the two experiences, thinking, okay, what's similar to these two? Of course me, but what else? And I realized boundaries were always getting crossed. I never took my own needs seriously and I'm one of those people that really believes, you know, if nothing changes, nothing changes.

Speaker 1: 3:34

So, you know, decided I don't even know what came over me with this move, but I enrolled in a PhD program and it was in transpersonal psychology. Like a book wasn't helping me out of this jam, I needed a whole PhD and because I was changing so much, I didn't quite understand it. He was too, wasn't really ready to look at that. And then it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal and honestly I was just studying it to just get myself out of this tremendous pain. But the study was on what holds us back, what helps us heal and what happens to us physically, mentally and emotionally when the people closest to us lie, cheat and deceive. That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.

Speaker 2: 4:23

Wow, I think that a lot of people have had a similar experience, with betrayal changing their life completely, and you pointed out at the beginning two different types of betrayal a family betrayal and a. What was the second? It was like how would you label your husband? What are the different types of betrayals?

Speaker 1: 4:44

Yeah, you know, it's really anything where, without your awareness or consent, someone broke those spoken or unspoken rules, you know. And the reason why it hurts so much is think about it. It's like these are the people you trusted the most. This is the person, or these are the people who gave you a sense of safety and security. So when this is the person, these are the people to shatter that very sense of safety and security.

Speaker 1: 5:13

It's traumatizing Like, think about it. If the person you trust the most proves untrustworthy, who do you trust If the one you run to when other people are causing harm, when that's the one causing the harm, where do you go? It's totally. It's so traumatizing. And then you know the way it works is the more we trust and the more we depend on someone, that deeper the betrayal. So, for example, a child who's totally dependent on their parent and then the parent does something awful. Let's just say that that's going to have a different impact than, let's say, your best friend sharing your secret. Still betrayals, right, it's a breaking of that spoken or unspoken rule, different level of cleanup left in the wake.

Speaker 2: 5:54

Yeah, I've experienced betrayal in my life and I've seen betrayal be experienced by a lot of amazing humans in my life, and I feel like the thing that we resort to immediately is like what did I do or what's wrong with me that led this person to treat me that way? Has that come up in your findings as well?

Speaker 1: 6:16

That was actually. That was part of the first discovery. And you know, originally I was setting betrayal and post traumatic growth. And for those who aren't familiar, post traumatic growth is, if you can imagine, like an upside of trauma, how any trauma death of a loved one, disease, natural disaster leaves you with a new awareness, insight, perspective you didn't have, but I had been through death of a loved one, I've been through disease and I was like nope, betrayal feels different.

Speaker 1: 6:43

But I didn't want to assume it was the same for everyone. So I asked them if you've been through other traumas, does betrayal feel different for you? Unanimously they said it's so different and here's why, because it feels so intentional, we take it so personally. So the entire self get shattered right Exactly to your point rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust. You know they all get shattered and need to be rebuilt. So like, for example, if you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss. Life will never be the same. You don't necessarily question the whole relationship, you don't question yourself, you don't question your ability to trust, you don't question your sanity. You know, with betrayal you do. So that type of experience and that type of healing needed its own name, which is now called post betrayal transformation, so that betrayal is a different type of trauma. That was the first discovery.

Speaker 2: 7:40

Yeah, that that sense of like am I crazy to be feeling this? Am I not seeing something Like? And that deep introspective like okay, do I need to self evaluate here? Is it me? Is like the first step that we all kind of go through is what I'm hearing. So when you were experiencing that family betrayal, were you quite young? Were you yet able to process or understand what was happening in that moment?

Speaker 1: 8:03

You know it's so interesting because you know when something traumatizing happens and you remember exactly where you are. Like everyone, if I say you know where were you Me day, discovery day you know exactly where you were. Well, I remember as a little kid I mean, this is, this is how. How profound it was. Because I remember thinking to myself, because I was just assuming that it was all me, like exactly to your point. And I remember thinking to myself, what if it's not me? That was so earth shattering, to my way of thinking, that I stopped myself cold.

Speaker 1: 8:36

You know, and I remember and I'll tell you this, this was how it, this is what happened with that, because that turned into and I don't even know what made me think of this, but I just kept thinking to myself, just keep thinking that. And the what if, what if it's not me, turned into overtime I don't think it's me. And that was equally as crazy to think. And I was like just keep, just keep going with that. And then it turned into what if it's them? Again as earth shattering, crazy. And then I kept sort of watering that seed and it turned into oh my gosh, it's them. And then it was like that was the beginning of a different healing journey. And but yeah, it's. These things are so crazy that you just automatically assume it must be me what's wrong with me. But it's not.

Speaker 2: 9:29

And it's so beautiful to see how curiosity and just engaging in questions and actually taking the time to ask yourself those things can be so powerful. Rather than just living on autopilot and and allowing those first thoughts to be the ones that run your train, you stopped and go. Wait, wait, wait. Is that? Is that the path I want to be going? Is that how I want to be seeing myself? And you had that insight at such a young age or before your PhD, to be able to do that for yourself, which is really cool. So what about with your partner? That's a betrayal that we see so often. I've had multiple infidelities in my life and I'm not even sure that that's the betrayal you encountered with your partner. Maybe you could tell us a little bit more about that.

Speaker 1: 10:18

Yeah, and again, it's so incredibly painful and that was the deal breaker. And so my intention after that was okay, I'm just going to now. I'm a single mom with all these kids and all these dogs in this business. I don't know how I'm going to do this or whatever, but I was going to heal and it's one of those things unless you experience it, it's hard to explain the heartbreak and the devastation and the pain. And that really was my intention. It was okay, well, I'm just going to heal from this.

Speaker 1: 10:52

But I remember thinking to myself it was just a moment going through the program If I'm going, if I can heal from this, I'm taking everybody with me, like it was just this weird kind of knowing and to close the loop on my story. And I want to get to the second and third discovery healing is always a choice Whether you heal yourself and move on and that's what I did with my family. It wasn't an option to heal with them or, if the situation lends itself, if you're willing, if you want to, you rebuild something from the ground up new, with the person who hurt you and as two totally different people. That's what I did with my husband Not long ago. We married each other again New rings, new vows, new dress, and our four kids is our bridal party. But here's what happens.

Speaker 1: 11:43

People are so afraid of the complete and utter death and destruction of the old and that's why they never have an opportunity to birth the new.

Speaker 1: 11:54

And that's why repeat betrayal is so common, one of the most classic signs of an unhealed betrayal, and that's why and I'm happy to share also the three groups in the study who did not heal this is one of the reasons why so many people struggle with this, because they struggle with making that big decision to have these consequences.

Speaker 1: 12:20

And then they look at it saying, well, oh my gosh, I don't want to be the one to break up a family and I don't want to be the one to create all this chaos. And who am I to do this and do that? And they don't think to themselves what about the person who did the betrayal? That's the person who created the chaos and broke up the family that you're thinking about, yourself and your own healing and how you'll be for your own kids and people within your care and reach right. That's who we don't think about. We think about okay, I'm just gonna struggle and suffer in silence and clean up this mess. I didn't make so that everything can stay as is, and it doesn't work that way. It just doesn't work.

Speaker 2: 13:02

Have you noticed any difference between how men and women show up in betrayal, like when you're talking about the self-sacrifice that a lot of people make, and when they experience that betrayal of thinking of the kids and the house and all the other people it's gonna affect if they stand up and walk away? Is there a difference between men and women and how they react?

Speaker 1: 13:22

You know, I'll tell you, we have a lot of men within the PBT Institute also. They're not as vocal, so they're not, you know, they're not, let's say, responding to me on social media as often as the women do, but it doesn't mean the pain is any less. They struggled just as much. They're just as easily blindsided and duped and hurt and betrayed. So they too, they completely struggle. It's one of those things that they're just there's, they're in so much shock, whether it's a man or a woman, they're in so much shock that they're sinking. It's like quicksand, you know. And then they struggle with these symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome. And then they stay in a certain stage, and which I'm happy to explain all of it in a second in discovery. So you can, you know, if we're gonna create this mess, I wanna create a way out of it for you.

Speaker 2: 14:16

So yeah so yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:19

So the second discovery this was exciting too, and what we learned was there's actually a collection of symptoms physical, mental and emotional so common to betrayal. It's known as post-betrayal syndrome. So we've had I don't know 95,000 people. Take our post-betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling. A few things about that. The first thing is we've all been taught time heals all wounds, right? Well, I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. Time won't heal it. Even a new relationship won't heal it, and that's what we count on. We have a.

Speaker 1: 14:57

There's a question on the quiz that says is there anything else you'd like to share? And people write things like my betrayal happened 35 years ago. I'm never gonna trust again. My betrayal happened 40 years ago. I can still feel the hate. My betrayal happened 10 years ago. I feel gutted. So we know, do not count on time and do not count on a new relationship. Unless and until you deliberately and intentionally heal it. It will follow you around like a shadow and show up in your relationships, in your health, in your work. That's a, and I will show you how that happens also, but every few months I pulled the stats from the quiz to see where people are. I'm happy to share them if that would help.

Speaker 2: 15:39

Yeah, absolutely. I would love to hear that.

Speaker 1: 15:42

Yeah. So now imagine men and women 95,000 plus people, just about every country's represented. 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. Listen to these numbers too. 80% are hypervigilant. 94% deal with painful triggers.

Speaker 1: 16:03

The most common physical symptoms 71% have low energy. 68% have sleep issues. 63% have extreme fatigue. So you wake up, you're exhausted, you're adrenal septanked. 47% have weight changes. Maybe in the beginning you can't hold anything down. Later on you're emotionally eating, using food for comfort. 45% have a digestive issue. That could be anything Crohn's, ibs, diverticulitis, constipation, diarrhea, anything.

Speaker 1: 16:33

The most common mental symptoms 78% are overwhelmed. 70% are walking around in a state of disbelief. 64% are in shock. 62% can't concentrate. So think about this. You can't concentrate, you're exhausted. You have a gut issue. Now you have to go to work. Now you still have to raise your kids. That's not even the emotional issues. Emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry, and bouncing back and forth between those two all day long can be exhausting. 82% are hurt. 80% have anxiety. 79% are stressed. Just a few more. Here's why I wrote the book Trust Again. 84% have an inability to trust. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they were afraid of being hurt again. 80% find it hard to move forward. 90% wanna move forward, but they don't know how.

Speaker 2: 17:32

There's so much in what you just shared that I hear like clients and friends identify. So often I'm digesting all that you just shared and the part of me it's like when I hear all that, I'm sure my listeners are like well then, what do you do? Like that just sounds so debilitating, like where do you even begin to heal from that? And what would you say to someone who's asking that question?

Speaker 1: 17:59

It's all about the third discovery and I want to get to that. I just want to share this one last thing. Think about it. Those numbers were super high. You didn't hear me say 20%, 30%, right, these numbers are really high. This is to me. This was the craziest part of it all.

Speaker 1: 18:13

These numbers aren't necessarily from a recent betrayal. This is from a parent who did something awful when you were a kid. This is from the girlfriend or boyfriend who broke your heart in high school. So think about this. That person may not know care, remember, they may not even be alive.

Speaker 1: 18:32

And here we are, decades later, with symptoms of post-patrial syndrome because of something that was never healed. That happened decades ago. That's the crime, right, I mean. The good news is you can heal from all of it, and that was the third discovery. This, for me, was the most exciting, and what was discovered was, while we can stay stuck for years, decades of lifetime and so many people do, as you said, all the people you're thinking of, if we're going to fully heal and by fully heal I mean those symptoms of post-patrial syndrome that I just shared to this completely rebuilt place of post-patrial transformation, where you're rebuilding your life and yourself, you're going to go through five proven, predictable stages, and what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally and emotionally at every one of those stages, and we know what's needed to move from one stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable and I'm happy to share the stages with you if you want to hear it.

Speaker 2: 19:35

Yeah, I think a lot of people oftentimes think of the stages of grief, right, anger and but it's also known that there's stages to betrayal, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1: 19:45

And grief, grieving has a really important place in healing from betrayal and it's not early on, it's actually later, so we can get to that. The five stages are all in trust. Again, it's what all of our coaches are certified in, it's all we do within the PBT Institute. Here's a boiled down version. So stage one, that's before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional and spiritual, what I saw with everybody me too was this heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being. Well, if a table only has two legs, easy for that table to topple over. That's us. Stage two shock, trauma. D-day, discovery day, the scariest of all of the stages, and this is the breakdown of the body, the mind and the worldview. This is the day you get the news. It's like someone pulled a mask off and revealed who they had been.

Speaker 2: 20:46

You've ignited the stress.

Speaker 1: 20:48

Oh yeah, you've ignited the stress response. You're now headed for every single stress-related symptom illness, condition, disease. Your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. You cannot make sense out of what you just discovered and your worldview has just been shattered. Your worldview is your mental model, the rules that govern you. Trust this person. Don't go there. These are the rules. And in one earth's shattering moment, every rule you've been holding to be real and true is no longer. The bottom has bottomed out on you and the new bottom hasn't been formed yet. This is terrifying, right. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You grab hold of anything or anyone to stay safe and stay alive.

Speaker 1: 21:38

In that stage three Survival instincts emerge. It's the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me get out of my way, how do I survive this? Who can I trust? What do I do? How do I feed my kids? But here's the trap, though Stage three by far is the most common place, we get stuck.

Speaker 1: 21:59

Most people you know are in stage three, and here's why, once we've figured out how to survive our experience because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where we just came from. We think it's good and we're like, okay. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we think this is it. So we plant roots here, we park here. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that. But we do, and four things happen. The first thing is you start getting all these small self-benefits from being there. Think about it. You get to be right. We like being right. We get our story, we love our story. We get sympathy from everyone. We tell our story to. We start getting all these things, all these benefits, and because we're not getting anything else, we're like, okay, we'll take it, and it feels good. So we plant deeper roots.

Speaker 1: 22:48

Again, we're not supposed to, but we don't know. And now, because we're here longer than we should be, the mind starts doing things like well, maybe you're not that great, maybe you just served it, maybe this, maybe that. So we plant deeper roots, right, again, we're not supposed to be here, but we don't know. Now, because these are the thoughts, we're thinking well, this is the energy we're putting out. Like energy attracts, like energy. So now we start attracting people and circumstances and relationships towards us to confirm, yep, this is where we belong. Here's where you join that lame support group, you know, and you will actually sabotage your growth because now you've found your people. Here's where we will sabotage our healing, because we don't wanna outgrow our betrayer. You see what I mean. It gets worse, but I'll get you out of here.

Speaker 2: 23:40

So I just wanna clarify this. This is the stage that you're identifying here. Is this kind of the stage where, when you talk about having a group and you're discussing, is this living in that state of betrayal and living and being stuck in that state of victimhood of? I'm going to carry this badge as someone who's been betrayed and this is the tough skin I'm going to wear on my back and carry that layer of grit and hatred with you everywhere.

Speaker 1: 24:08

One billion percent. Okay, exactly. This is why support is more crucial than ever, but the support that lifts and inspires, not the commiserate, and that's the worst thing, and this is what I'll tell you. We have so many people coming into the PBT Institute, coming off of groups like that, because all they do is commiserate. The other thing is they come in because they have therapy trauma.

Speaker 1: 24:38

Here's the thing If anything is going to glue you to stage three, it's endlessly unpacking your story so that you're retraumatized, you're revalidated, you're yes, you're doing all those things you heard, but there's not one thing moving you towards stage four. And people spend years in therapy and they're like why am I still struggling with this? That is exactly why and I'm a psychologist, but I am a coach first, and I'll tell you, I see it all day long, where you know they're like oh well, I'm seeing a therapist, yeah, that's what I'm going to do. And then I'm in my support group and you're wondering why you're still having repeat betrayals and why you're still, you know, struggling with symptoms of post-patrial syndrome. It's because everything you're doing is keeping you in stage three. So here's the last piece that we do for stage three. Right, because we're so unhappy.

Speaker 1: 25:30

Right, let's say you're in therapy. You fit that from someone who doesn't truly understand betrayal. You're and the five stages. You're in that support group. You have all these symptoms. Nothing is moving you forward. Now you're so miserable but you're like I have to get through my day. I mean, like you know, I have to. I have to go to work, I have to raise my kids. Right here you start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, tv, keeping busy, whatever it is. So think about this. To numb, avoid and distract yourself from this painful place. You do it for a day, a week, a month. Now to have it a year, 10 years, 20 years. And I can see someone 20 years later and say that emotional eating you're doing, that drinking you're doing. Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like I'm crazy. They would say I have it. 20 years ago. All they did was put themselves in stage three and stayed there. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 26:22

Absolutely, it makes sense. It reminds me of a personal betrayal that I experienced and the advice my mother gave to me at that time because therapy of course has a place of healing for people where you do need to go and you do need to sit in that discomfort and process those emotions, and it's great for that. And the best advice my mom gave to me when I was healing from a really massive betrayal that left me heartbroken and alone in Australia was, she said grieve, feel that pain, feel your way through it and pick a day where you're no longer going to allow that feeling to dictate your life any longer, where you're going to start choosing to find better thoughts and better feelings and not allow that to just completely take over your life. And it was hard, it was done in small steps, each and every way, but it took me away from I'm alone. Now Nobody wants to date me, I'm the worst and actually led me to falling madly in love with myself. Which, what's the fourth stage? Is that the fourth stage For falling in love?

Speaker 1: 27:25

with yourself. It's an important piece and your mom gave you great advice. Here's the thing, though Betrayal hits you on every level physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually so all levels have to be addressed, like, for example, we have one of our coaches. They're all certified in the five stages but they all specialize in different things. So we have one of our coaches who specializes in the somatic, body-based practices, because the issues are in the tissues, they just are Anyway. So if you're willing willingness is a big word right here, because many people are not willing to grieve more in the loss right Bunch of things you need to do you move to stage four.

Speaker 1: 28:08

Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's what you acknowledge I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. Right there, in that decision, you're turning down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but at least you stop the massive damage you've been accumulating in stages two and stage three. Stage four feels like, if you've ever moved, if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo, whatever, your stuff's not all there, it's not quite cozy up, but you're like okay, all right, we got this. It feels like that. But think about this If you were to move, you don't take everything with you, right? You don't take those things that don't represent the version of you. You wanna be in your new space and what I found was there's this one spot, moving out of stage three into stage four, where, if your friends weren't there for you, you don't take them with you right here. You've outgrown them. And it's so interesting because people say to me all the time what the heck I've had these friends for years. Is it me? Yes, it is. You're undergoing the transformation and if they don't rise, they don't come. That lame support group. You don't take them with you, that betrayer who isn't changing. And so you're realizing your value and your worth. You don't take them with you right, right here.

Speaker 1: 29:29

So when you've settled into this new space, you've made it cozy, you've made it mentally home. You move into the fifth, most beautiful stage, and this is healing, rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal self-love, self-care, eating well, exercise, stuff like that. You didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. You were surviving, now you do. Your mind is healing. You're making new rules. You're making all kinds of new boundaries Based on the road you just traveled, and you have a new worldview based on everything you see so clearly now and the four legs of that table. In the beginning it was all about the physical and the mental. By this point you're solidly grounded because you're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages.

Speaker 2: 30:10

So stage five is kind of like completing the cycle and entering this stage of post-traumatic growth or like post-betrayal growth, could we say.

Speaker 1: 30:20

It's post-betrayal transformation. It's when you've rebuilt your life and yourself. It is so common that we see our members in stage four and stage five. Here's where we'll see new levels of health. Here's where we'll see new relationships, healthy new relationships, either with someone completely new or a very healthy, very new relationship with the person who hurt them. We'll see new businesses. We'll see new brands, new passion projects like the PBT Institute. That was a stage five thing. You don't have access to these new evolutions of you and these new ideas when you're stuck in your trauma. But I'll tell you, there were three groups in the study who did not heal, and this will explain why you don't get to that stage.

Speaker 1: 31:11

For stage five, the first one this was the group. They had their story. That was it, as you mentioned before them, and their story, and at the end of the day, that's all they had. The second group they ran to the doctor who put them on a mood stabilizer or an anti-anxiety medication. They numbed, they did whatever they could to distract. Now it may have made the day a bit easier, but there was a price for that. They didn't heal. And the third group this was the one where the betrayer really had very little consequences, whether it was out of financial fear, not wanting to break up a family, religious reasons, it was a big one. They just tried to turn the other cheek. I saw only two things with this group a further deterioration of that relationship, and this group by far was the most physically sick.

Speaker 2: 32:01

Oh, I can imagine. I can only imagine. And each stage is done at a different pace per person. Everyone's gonna ride this Like you could spend multiple years at any given stage, or you could no.

Speaker 1: 32:17

You don't have to, but we have our high level program, our transform program, where members work with me. They move through all five stages in six months.

Speaker 2: 32:26

Oh, wow, but you're such a trained. This is your baby, this is your beast. I'm sure you're very good at taking people through that, but for people who are not maybe able to access coaching and go through this in their own kind of way, it could take.

Speaker 1: 32:45

Yeah, they still couldn't go through it so much more quickly because there's a roadmap. The roadmap is the five stages. So if someone, like even our signature program in the community, are betrayed or break through program, if you follow just that program, you will literally move through the stages. I'm not saying it's easy. It's the hardest, probably one of the hardest and the most transformative things you'll ever do. But it's not the, and the stages are in trust again. So people ask me all the time do you have to work at these high levels? Or we have entry level programs within the PBT Institute too. No, you don't have to. You have to be willing to move through the stages. That's what you have to be willing to do.

Speaker 2: 33:30

What about those who experience a betrayal, say in their intimate relationship, but are looking to still move forward with that same partner? I know you've remarried your partner and so there's not maybe necessarily the same kind of loss of life that you have to mourn, but you do need to be willing to step into a new dynamic because an affair will change so much in your relationship. So is there a difference about whether or not you're choosing to stay in that relationship or getting back to that trust to that person again? That's maybe different than what we've addressed so far.

Speaker 1: 34:06

Sure, there are so many things to consider, the first being to rebuild without the betrayer. Becoming someone completely and totally different is a recipe for pain and disaster. That's the first thing, because betrayal will show you who someone truly is. It also has the opportunity to wake them up to who they temporarily became. You don't have to do anything with it, but if they become someone entirely new because of it, you at least have something to work with. If they're not using the and that's why we have a program, a rebuild program for the betrayer, if they're not using that opportunity to completely change everything that led them to make those decisions, and use the opportunity to become someone they're proud of, if you're rebuilding with someone who has no intention of really doing the work to change, what's that? What are you doing right there and what's your reason behind that? I would really invite everybody to consider that, because the price you're going to pay is enormous in your health, in your well-being, in your level of confidence and self-esteem and all of that. So that's the first thing I'd say. And it's a different dynamic when you rebuild yourself and move on, like I did with my family. But we have our coaches who have done that with their partners and a different dynamic when the relationship is completely over and you rebuild something new. We have coaches who have done that as well, including me. So all very different experiences. But what I have found between the research, my own experience, all of our certified coaches and members within the community that death and destruction of the old is so hard. It's so hard, but it allows for the birth of the new and it allows for something spectacular. You know I use this analogy and in the second TEDx I did. Do you have post-patrial syndrome?

Speaker 1: 36:11

I give this analogy of a house and here's the difference between resilience and transformation Like resilience is restoring and bringing back and you need that for your everyday. So, using this analogy of a house, like, let's say a house needs a new paint job and you paint, that would be resilience, right. Let's say it needs a new roof. You get a roof. That would be resilience. Here's trauma and transformation. A tornado comes by and levels your house Right. Like a paint job is not going to fix it and a roof is not going to fix it. You know now you have every right. And this would be the stage three people to kick and scream and cry and mourn the loss of your house until your last day, you know, and you could call all your friends over and say, isn't this the most horrible thing you'd ever seen? And they'd all agree and you'd be right. And you can, until your last breath, you could talk about your house.

Speaker 1: 37:02

However, should you choose to rebuild your house, you don't have to. But if you choose to, why in the world would you build the same one? It's not there, right? Why not build something magnificent? Why not make it better, more beautiful? Whatever it is to you, that's the opportunity. Whether you make this version of yourself that wouldn't have the opportunity to exist, or if you choose that new relationship as that 2.0 relationship, that's the opportunity. But you only get that with the death and destruction of the old.

Speaker 2: 37:39

When you reflect on your own healing journey? Do you remember the moment that something switched in you where you went from grieving and heartbreak to I'm not going to let this be my story or I'm going to figure this out Like this led to many years of research and now it's a dedication of your life? Do you remember that moment where it was like, oh, I figured it out, I know what I need to do now.

Speaker 1: 38:10

It wasn't. I know what I need to do. It was a dark night of the soul moment and everybody, when you have them, you just know, and the pain, the I mean here's. It's not that it's better or worse for anybody, but I'm a highly sensitive, empath and integrity is my highest value. So you take integrity as your highest value, then you take a sensitive and you betray them. It almost doesn't get worse for your like being to be able to process that Right.

Speaker 1: 38:43

And because I've lived a very simple life with one rule If it's going to hurt, don't do it. And I assume everybody lives by that team rule, and I'm always shocked and amazed that that's not. You know, that's not the way other people work, right. But yeah, it was. It was of an intensely painful dark night of the soul experience and I was like no, no, no, no, no, this this can kill me or you know I can do something else with it. I didn't quite know just what yet, but but I knew. And then it was interesting. I don't know how spiritual your audience is, but can we go there a little bit?

Speaker 2: 39:21

Oh, I love spirituality. I bring a lot of spirituality into my life. Let's go there. Perfect.

Speaker 1: 39:27

All right, so we're going to go here now. So you know, one of the things with betrayal is you lose your trust in everything Right, so you lose this sense of connectedness and you, you, you just completely lose trust and people. It was interesting because in the study people got more spiritual, whether it was the spiritual side of their religion or just spiritual, because they needed something to believe in again, to feel a sense of connection to something, to trust in something. And and I was no different, I had been spiritual already but this really kicked it up a notch for me.

Speaker 1: 40:01

And I remember seeing an intuitive counselor who since become a different and and because I wanted sort of that direct line, you know, I needed answers, yeah. And I remember walking in and I didn't even sit down and she starts laughing. She's like, oh, my gosh, how you two plan this. She didn't know a thing about me. I was like what he goes? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, he needed something so catastrophic to correct so he could crash and burn and become the husband and father friend that he's supposed to be. And you, you needed something so big so that you can heal and then teach from this deep place of knowing you're going to have an institute, you're going to have books, you're going to have this whole following around betrayal and I was like you're crazy.

Speaker 1: 40:47

So, I love that story.

Speaker 2: 40:50

That's amazing. I'm such a believer that you know, when you talk about spirituality like I'm a believer that we come here for a purpose to learn and grow our souls to, and that the challenges that we face are things that we've plotted and planned in advance to help our souls grow. As hard as that may be to sometimes confront, because we never want to go through those things, but when you can look at it at least for me it's been a tremendous help. For me as I navigate difficult parts in my life is believing that there's something that I can learn and grow from that hardship. It sounds like that's what I'm hearing.

Speaker 1: 41:24

Your perspective it is. It's why I remember thinking to myself you know, just as I said when I was a little kid, what if? You know? I asked those questions and I remember thinking to myself, what if she's right? I'm going to do all the work to heal and I have no idea what my future is going to look like. But what if she's right? It was just a little thing in the back of my mind and you know, then you do the work to heal regardless, right? And then when you do something good with something painful, it's just trauma well served.

Speaker 2: 42:00

You know so much about betrayal now and I can see in how you talk and how you hold yourself. You have such strength and a knowing of who you are and how you want to present yourself in this world, but that does not stop anyone from betraying us at any time. Since doing this work, have you met or faced any betrayals and noticed a difference in how you feel or carry or move yourself through that? Now that you know as much as you do?

Speaker 1: 42:28

Yeah, that's such a good question. You know, I don't think we're never like betrayal proof. Our BS meter is sharpened and strengthened, for sure. I think we automatically don't attract the same type of people into our lives because we're just resonating at a different level. It's not a better or worse, we're just at a different level of consciousness. But yeah, I mean, people get angry at me all the time.

Speaker 1: 42:54

I just got someone, just felt I betrayed them this morning and I'll show this really quick story. We're honored that. I'm not sure when this is going to air, but we were honored that just last week the PBT Institute is the founder of National Forgiveness Day, which will be September 1st. So I was so excited about that because we're doing a 21-day forgiveness journey and it's just, it's so needed. So I sent an email to our list and someone emailed me this morning just getting so angry, like feeling like I betrayed her.

Speaker 1: 43:29

Because she's been betrayed. And why should she just forgive? Because you know her partner's still not doing everything to forget to, you know, make up for what he had done and all of these things. And so you know, in her mind, I betrayed her and you know we can interpret things however we like, and I wrote it back saying well, what if it's self-forgiveness that you forgave yourself for not treating yourself with the love, respect, the care that you needed going through you know such a painful time? So I think these things always come our way. It's how we navigate them really.

Speaker 2: 44:08

I love that you touched on forgiveness, because I have had to forgive people who weren't sorry for what they did to me and people wonder like how could you forgive that person? How could you just like, let them? How come you didn't report them or say this to someone, or whatever it may be. And it's like I forgive them for me, I didn't forgive them for them. That doesn't mean that I'm going to welcome them back in my life. It's not that I'm going to celebrate them for all of time, but I'm not going to carry the weight of that with me any longer because it doesn't serve me.

Speaker 2: 44:39

And that question. I faced two betrayals in my life, one very soon after the other, and I had done such tremendous healing from the first one that when the second one happened, as much as it was like I was raging, I was pissed, I was, you know, I had all those feelings. But the healing process was so much shorter for me because the thought that I had was like I am so much better than this, Like I do not deserve this treatment, and knowing that love for myself and trusting in who I am as a person, I think served me really well in that process.

Speaker 2: 45:16

So, working with coaches that keep you in alignment with who you are, how you want to be showing up in this world, can be great in healing whatever's left to be unhealed, but also keep you strong so that when shit does come and shit does hit the fan you can stay grounded in your sense of self. As we come to an end of this conversation. You've shared so much juicy information to our listeners. What do you really hope? If you could summarize that our listeners take away from this conversation if they are themselves currently healing from a betrayal?

Speaker 1: 45:54

Yeah, it's, there's a roadmap. There's no reason to stay in stage three. That's it's such quicksand and it's it's a choice. It really is. Healing is a choice. There's a roadmap for it now.

Speaker 2: 46:09

And if anyone listening is like I need to work with Debbie ASAP. What is the best way that people can continue learning from you or connect with you?

Speaker 1: 46:20

Everything is at thePBT, as in post-betrayal transformation thePBTinstitutecom Great.

Speaker 2: 46:26

And I will have that linked below and share. I'll have all of Debbie's links below. You can follow her on, I think, all the social media sites, or I'll have her TED Talks, which are phenomenal, linked below as well. Thank you so much for taking the time to participate in this conversation with me. I've really learned so much in this conversation and I hope the listeners have as well. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider liking, subscribing and letting us know your thoughts in the comments below. It truly means the world to me to hear from you.

Speaker 2: 47:04

New episodes will be available every Saturday, both on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts and if you would like to learn more about my work as a coach, today's guest or have a story that you would like to share on the pivot point, check out the episode description for more information. Now time for the legal stuff. This podcast is presented to you solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I may be a professionally certified coach myself, but hosting a podcast is not coaching. This podcast should not be used in substitution of working with a licensed therapist, doctor, coach or other qualified professionals. Copy that Amazing. See you on the next episode. Nothing but love, just.